See it for yourself here not once in the whole commercial does it even mention gambling. Yet gambling is at the very heart of what Learn and Earn is.
This is really what Learn and Earn is about the main part:
The Amendment further provides that the scholarships and grants would be funded through the operation of slot machines at the seven commercial horse racing tracks and at two other locations in Cleveland and one other location in Cincinnati. The number of slot machines would be limited at each location. The amendment would prohibit the operation of other games unless approved by the voters of the county in which the slot machine facility is located, and such election could not occur sooner than the fourth general election after passage of the amendment.
Under the agreement, thirty percent of the proceeds of the authorized games shall be dedicated to the scholarship and grant programs. An additional eight percent of the proceeds of the authorized games shall be dedicated to county, township and municipal governments primarily for economic development or capital improvement projects as specified. Six percent of the proceeds of the authorized games shall be dedicated to the purse funds of Ohio's seven permitted horse racing tracks, and one percent of the proceeds of the authoized games shall be dedicated to gambling addiction services. The amendment would prohibit any other taxes or fees against the amounts wagered or proceeds of the authorized games.
I don't care if you decide you want slot gambling here at Toledo Raceway Park or if you think that gambling is a sin. Promoting this with this type of advertisement on TV and radio without one mention of what this is really about which is GAMBLING...Is not only wrong? But totally dishonest.
And there is not a whole lotta good coming from that.
UPDATE: I'm not even sure if that type of advertising is legal:
3517.22 Unfair activities in issue campaign
(A) No person during the course of any campaign in advocacy of or in opposition to the adoption of any proposition or issue submitted to the voters shall knowingly and with intent to affect the outcome of such campaign do any of the following:
(2) Post, publish, circulate, distribute, or otherwise disseminate, a false statement, either knowing the same to be false or acting with reckless disregard of whether it was false or not, that is designed to promote the adoption or defeat of any ballot proposition or issue.
More to follow...Looks like I'm going to discover what is entailed in filing a complaint.
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36 comments:
dont see how they are disseminating anything false. You may disagree that they arent fully discussing the entire issue, but what they do discuss isnt false IMHO.
I guess that depends on what your definition of the word "false" is. To me an ad that doesn't mention gambling when the constitutional amendment is about gambling is false.
If they can't pass the amendment thru open and honest disclosure? Seems false.
There's only one way to find out and if it's legal? At least a few more people will find out that it's about more than just College Scholarships.
There is nothing false in this ad.
You can twist our message as much as you want, but people realize that this will be a great deal for their kids. I have already had dozens of emails from parents asking when the program will start.
Ohioans are already spending this money on gambling out-of-state, online, on their cell phone, at the race tracks, with illegal bookies, etc.; all of which brings in $0 for Ohio.
We will bring in one billion dollars a year for Ohio's kids.
There is nothing false about that.
Todd, I'm not twisting the message, I'm not the one who doesn't even list any information on what this constitutional amendment is. It is to allow slot gambling, without the gambling it is not a constitutional amendment.
No matter how you try to dress this up or what cute little ad you create it is about allowing gambling. If the voters of Ohio want slot gambling that's up to the voters of Ohio but to do it in this manner to me is 100% wrong. Show me where the ad even mentions gambling one time or states where the funding is going to come from?
If you want to change the constitution of Ohio to allow slot gambling? Be open and honest about it. That's my complaint and I've made that pretty clear.
You should also post as a disclaimer when you are on blogs that you are paid by Learn and Earn to do what you are doing right now. You are posting as a part of your employment which is to get this constitutional amendment passed.
I do typically post a disclaimer, and as I have not posted on your site before, your readers might not know that I work for Ohio Learn and Earn. I apologize for that.
I am the Director of Online Communications for Ohio Learn and Earn. My job involves managing our website and blog, running out email outreach campaign, setting up online advertising, and communicating with bloggers and online activists. I do this by sending our blog press releases, posting blogs, responding to questions and comments, and setting up interviews with bloggers and our staff.
Thank you.
If my readers decide they want slot gambling to be legal here? At least they'll have all of the resources to make that decision.
If the ad is legal? I still disagree with it yet as I stated I am not a lawyer. In my opinion that is false or if you have a different interpretation of the world false; deceptive advertising because the real basis of this consitutional amendment is gambling. It is the primary source of financing that you are stating would be used for this program.
Realistically, isn't it better for voters to have the answers rather than to see an ad campaign that never mentions gambling then when they show up to vote they see the word gambling? That's what I want Todd, people to make an informed decision. That's why I take issue with your ad because to me it doesn't give voters that information.
I understand your point, and I do not want to be deceptive. And I never shy away from providing detailed information to answer anyone's questions.
Rest assured, everyone will know that the funding for our scholarships will come from the proceeds from slot machines. In fact, while they haven't been created yet, I am sure our future ads will be more of the discussion - debate genre. In addition, this issue will be all over the MSM.
It is June 1; the election is on November 7. Right now we are just hoping that a few people remember our name and our little jingle, and go to our website and find out more about the initiative.
Thank you William, I have been to Toledo's Raceway Park a few times. While it has been an enjoyable evening I agree I don't see people spending hours upon hours there playing slots. People that I know who go to casinos do more than just slots.
You raise some interesting points as well as confirm some of what I knew. I can't help wondering how they are going to make a large enough profit that 30 percent of the profits from slots will equal one billion dollars a year for education. What would happen if they don't make enough money to fully fund the scholarships as promised? Technically they have only promised to fund the top 5% who already have access to more aid than the rest of their college peers.
Unfortunately most of the questions I have beyond the way this is being promoted can't be answered from the Learn and Earn website though they did finally add a section on "Gaming".
Lisa-
These tricksters are everywhere and crawl out of their holes about this time in an election year.
Soon we'll be seeing petitions on "saving marriage" from the Christian right, disguising themselves as 'Friends of the Family' or some such cover.
Standing in front of the train station on the evening of the ted Strickland/John Kerry rally were several clean-cut 20-somethings handing out what we thought were fliers for other Democratic candidates running in the fall election.
Surprise! They were Young Republicans handing out anti-Strickland propaganda. My son, after taking one of the fliers and scanning it, walked back to them and asked who they were. "Concerned Citizens" they said. He pressed on until one of them acknowledged his GOP connection.
Slick and sleazy, and multiplying like mushrooms this time of the year!
Learn and Earn could very possibly get the signatures it needs to go on the ballot. I haven't seen what the petition they are asking people to sign states. No one has approached me yet to ask me to sign here in Toledo.
Fieldworks is spending a great deal of money hiring people to get the necessary signatures.
I think what bothers me the most is that the knowledge that voters would sign a petition or even worse yet vote for or against something merely based on a marketing campaign without looking into the facts. A constitutional amendment should be something rarely done and taken with extreme caution.
Sigh...in the latest press release from Learn and Earn this is stated:
On Thursday, northeast Ohio’s preeminent economic development organization, the Greater Cleveland Partnership, endorsed Learn and Earn as a “force to provide people the education they need for the jobs they want.” according to Joe Roman, President and CEO of GCP
GCP has been involved in trying to get casino gambling to Cleveland before...They even sponsored a study to promote the concept of 18 casinos (not just slots, casinos) State wide.
It's also worth pointing out in March, GCP said they would not support this and everything that was stated in this Cleveland Plain Dealer article about the tax rate (which would be unconstitutional if this amendment passes) did not happen.
How GCP can feel this will generate over 750 million annually is a mystery. I realize it's being stated this will generate 1 billion dollars a year but that has not been clearly demonstrated as possible.
Generating 1 billion dollars representing 30 percent of the proceeds would mean a heck of a lot of slot machines would be necessary. I'd love to know how they came up with that figure. How many slot machines and how much profit per day average would be necessary to meet that billion dollar 30% ratio.
some more interesting history
Okay found some numbers...
here
Up to 3,500 slot machines, according to that article. So I'm guessing those slot machines would have to be pretty busy to generate enough profits for 30% to equal a billion dollars a year.
And the bigger picture becomes clear:
Four sites in or partly in Cuyahoga County - two downtown, plus the Thistledown track in North Randall and Northfield Park track in Northfield - could expand to table games such as blackjack and roulette as soon as 2010, if Cuyahoga County voters approve.
"They were Young Republicans handing out anti-Strickland propaganda."
Yep, and they lacked the quirky charm of the Lyndon LaRouche people.
On my view, there are three big problems with the proposal Todd's group is proposing:
First, he advances an "ends justifies the means" argument by claiming that gambling is "a great deal for the kids". But, we all know that money for education is not controversial, it's how the revenue is generated. Should we also support brothels, if 30% went to education? For that matter, think how much revenue is lost because illegal drugs go untaxed. My point is, the debate should be about whether or not we want to legalize gambling. The fact that some money would go "to the kids" is a red herring.
Second, I have a question about goals and efficiency. Under this plan, if I want 30 cents to go to education, I first have to go LOSE a dollar in a slot machine. I'd be better off if I simply paid 30 cents in taxes. The kids get their thirty cents, and I keep 70 cents of a dollar I would have lost gambling. If our goal here is to raise $1B/year in revenue for education, wouldn't it be more efficient to just do a statewide tax levy? How many dollars do Ohioans have to lose in slot machines to get that $1B "for the kids"?
Third, what are the social costs of allowing gambling in our state? Would they be offset by the benefits? I don't know, but I do think it's a good question.
Good points Don and I'd like the answer to those questions as well.
Makes me wish rather than ask Sherrod about Iraq I would have known about this issue back then so I could have asked him his position on Learn and Earn.
I know DeWine is against it. I also wonder since Betty Montgomery was going to be the person who chaired the opposition what's going to happen with her illness and that aspect. I know Ted Strickland has come out against it. I'm not a one issue voter but it would be nice to know how the current candidates weigh in on this issue.
Lisa-
FYI here is how we get the numbers:
30 percent of the gross slot machine revenue will be dedicated to the scholarship program. Which would equal nearly one billion a year.
The amendment will authorize 31,500 slot machines.
Here is the math:
On a conservative estimate a slot machine brings in an average of $250/day (Indiana's slot machines average $415/day). Multiply $250/day for 31,500 machines for 365 days and you get the conservative estimate of
$2,874,375,000.
30 percent of $2.9 billion is nearly a billion a year for education.
A billion a year for 12 years with interest, deducting scholarships each year (to the highest 5%, 10%, 15%,etc. increasing each year) will allow us to offer scholarships to all students in 12 years.
Todd Hoffman
Ohio Learn and Earn
Kate it was from the Cleveland Plain Dealer article that was linked but here it is again and the paragraph I took it from for context:
In revised ballot language submitted this week to the Ohio attorney general's office, Learn and Earn struck a compromise that includes placing up to 3,500 slots at each of nine sites - the state's seven horse tracks and two sites in downtown Cleveland that are owned by Jacobs and Forest City.
If they made a typographical error it comes from them not me which led to the confusion on how one billion dollars could result from that small of a number of slot machines.
Indiana's rates aren't an equal comparison - they don't have slot gambling at horse race tracks they are on the river boat gambling operations.
here
Then, this:
An indepth study by CNHI News Service into the cost, causes and consequences of problem gambling and what's being done about it determined that:
-- Legal gambling in the United States is a $135.9 billion per year business, based on revenue figures provided by the states that allow it. That's more than double the combined revenues of $50 billion annually from box office movies, recorded music, spectator sports, and live entertainment. And it does not include online betting, which is in legal limbo.
-- About 70 percent of gambling profits come from 30 percent of the people who gamble, according to research by Prof. Earl Grinols, an economist at Baylor University. Frequency, Grinols found, is a crucial characteristic of profit.
-- Social costs of problem gambling across the nation are estimated at a minimum of $5 billion per year, according to a federal study commission. The annual cost to society of each pathological gambler was pegged at $13,200.
If this is true:
Harrah's Entertainment is the country's biggest gambling company. It recently merged with Caesars Entertainment and now owns 39 casinos in the United States, with revenues of $8.76 billion a year, more than the annual budget of most states.
Then Learn and Earn believes that it will make more profit per location for just slot machines alone than Harrah's does for it's Casino's. 10 locations is supposed to equal 2.9 billion dollars yet 39 locations for Harrah's equals 8.9 billion...
The more I read the more questions I have.
Slot machines alone make more money than Casinos. Table games require a dealer, pit boss, extra security, etc. There is very little overhead on slot machines and the betting is more frequent. So, yes, our projections are conservative.
31,500 slot machines is the correct number. See the amendment at www.ohiolearnandearn.com.
Lisa and Kate,
I value your opinion and this discussion, however we all no there is nothing "illegal" about our ads. Although it does make for good blog traffic.
You cited:
3517.22 Unfair activities in issue campaign
(A) No person during the course of any campaign in advocacy of or in opposition to the adoption of any proposition or issue submitted to the voters shall knowingly and with intent to affect the outcome of such campaign do any of the following:
(2) Post, publish, circulate, distribute, or otherwise disseminate, a false statement, either knowing the same to be false or acting with reckless disregard of whether it was false or not, that is designed to promote the adoption or defeat of any ballot proposition or issue.
Please point out to me where the ad posted, published, circulated, distributed, or disseminated a false statement? We state the great benefits of the program and these are true. We do not say anything about the funding.
A statement must exist to be false.
Furthermore, as I have said, information is and will be abundant on the details of our amendment. You can read the amendment online at our website (www.ohiolearnandearn.com) or on the Attorney General's website. Every petitioner carries a copy of the amendment; in fact it is part of the petition booklet. Our website is abundant with information, with press kits for MSM and blogger alike on the way.
“To not fully disclose the intent of the initiative is illegal in my opinion.”
I enjoy the debate here, but lets keep the false legal claims to a minimum unless you can back them up with a solid argument. Illegality is not determined by opinion, but by law.
Todd Hoffman
Ohio Learn and Earn
To answer your questions:
1. Absolutely, this is a matter for the voters. This is why it is being presented as an amendment to be voted on in November, rather than a legislative act.
2. I definitely think that voters should be informed. This is why I have been working relentlessly to update our website, send out emails, comment on blogs, send out press releases, attract interest to our website, etc. Our first ad is a branding ad. It is very early in the campaign season. Right, now we are trying to get people to remember our name, and maybe the little fun jingle, and then come to our website and investigate the matter further and read the amendment.
Todd, blog traffic is not an issue for me, this is a more local specific blog where the majority of the readers live within Lucas County.
Further, I have stated that I was not an attorney but my reading of the statue and the way the advertising is done is deceptive and is therefore could very well be a violation. As far as providing you with evidence? It's pretty clear. There is no mention of the gambling yet gambling is a key part of this constitutional amendment.
I realize you are being paid to do this, or else I'd be flattered that you have spent so much time here, yet if I have concerns and it's obvious other people are concerned the easiest way to determine this is to go thru the process. I'm sure with the 12 million dollars that is going to be spent to get this amendment passed lawyers looked at the ads as well as your advertising material. Yet I do have the right to ask for clarification and to talk to legal representation rather than take your word for it. I mean really, even if I was right I would not expect you to write anything different than what you have so far. It could very well be legal yet it is still deceptive so perhaps this raises the issue that the rules concerning advertising for issues needs to be re-examined.
As I said, if nothing else? At least those who read here will be informed as to what the full scope of this constitutional amendment is.
I think this blog discussion demonstrates though that your press release from earlier isn't accurate. It's not just politicians and special interest groups that are not for Learn and Earn the way it is being presented. I'm not a politican, nor am I a special interest group. I'm a mom of five with a blog who wants open disclosure because that makes a more informed electorate.
:-)
Todd, I do appreciate the fact that you are starting to add information as to the gambling aspect. That was a huge concern early on because there was nothing there. Though the information on the actual gambling aspect is not very detailed and is listed as "gaming" that is better than when I first visited.
So kudos on that one, I do give you credit for that. I am still always going to take issue with the name but at least for those with internet access who see your ad they can look.
Regarding § 3517.22,
The legal question here is whether an Ohio court would interpret this statute to include "misleading" statements as well as "false" ones. The ad in question is clearly misleading, due to the omission of a material fact. Todd's group knows the slot machines are controversial, and that's why they're not mentioned in the ad. They also know that the more people know that the amendment legalizes gambling, the less likely voters will go for the proposal.
That's the question, though. Does the statue cover misleading ads? I don't know, but most political ads omit material facts.
At any rate, filing a complaint is a great idea, because it could generate press coverage. That would be a good way to spread the word that "Earn and Learn" is really about legalizing gambling.
After all, Lisa, you're friends with enough lawyers. ;)
lol - that's true Don
Some of my favorite people are lawyers or will be lawyers.
:-)
Kate-
To answer your question:
3. Yes, voters will know that the funding is coming from gambling. It will be on our website, in our press releases, on our blog, etc. Like I have said, we are in the branding phase of our campaign. If voters remember our name enough to check out our website and learn more, and hopefully read the amendment, we are happy.
And please let me dispel the meme here that I am here only because I am getting paid. I am here because I am passionate about education. A little background on me: My father spent 30 years as a teacher and administrator in Ohio public schools. My mother still works in the public school system, as does my Aunt. I have been a High School and Junior High School substitute teacher. I have also taught at the college level, teaching political science to Ohio University students. I have also spent 5 years working for three different non-profit educational organizations. I, and my family alike, take the education of Ohio's youth very seriously.
I decided to work in politics because I am passionate about many issues. And as my Dad has always told me, if you can wake up in the morning and can't wait to get to work, you know that you are doing the right thing. I love this amendment because it is great for Ohio's students; that is my motivation.
Todd, you are being paid and you are doing this as a part of your job. You are not doing this as a volunteer, therefore it is different.
I'm not trying to demean your zeal for this message but you are no matter how you slice it being paid to promote the Learn and Earn message on blogs. Realistically you are trying to turn our blogs into an extension of your marketing campaign.
None of us are being paid to promote your message or the anti-Learn and Earn message. Really the only way I would 100% support the people that are paying you which are the gambling companies like Penn National, is if the amendment was named in a manner that gambling was openly a part of it and all advertising reflected a correct name. Since that's not going to happen, we are going to disagree until the cows come home about this being open and honest.
You could very well be a fantastic guy but I disagree with manner in which this is being done.
:-)
Oh come on Lisa where is the love?
We will continue this discussion. But remember, where else than the blogs would we (you) be able to discuss a statewide amendment this closely with a member of the campaign? And make a difference. Yeeeha, for the blogs. Gotta love the medium.
"Todd, you are being paid and you are doing this as a part of your job. You are not doing this as a volunteer, therefore it is different."
I wish I had the money to spend my days philsophying about the great things in life, but I have a $50,000 loan that I have to pay off. I would have loved to have a Learn and Earn program when I was in school.
Lisa,
If there's a knock at the door, make sure that it isn't Todd Hoffman (or, one of his cohorts) trying to jam their foot inside.
IOW, once we let slots into Ohio, all of the other games, at many, many other sites will surely work their way in, little by little.
This is a campaign of incrementalism...
But, for it to work, they need to get their proverbial foot in the door.
(and the later gaming splits will surely shrink incrementally too, just like toe Ohio Lottery’s has…)
"...but I have a $50,000 loan that I have to pay off. I would have loved to have a Learn and Earn program when I was in school."
You might have tried getting good grades. Scholarships are a good way to avoid big student loan bills (I kid because I care).
But seriously, Todd, I feel your pain. By the time I'm done with law school, I'll be wishing I had only $50K in loans. I'm in the top 10% of my class, and get jack squat in assistance from the university. I'd like some help, as would many similarly situated students.
But the big question is still this: Why legalize gambling? Why not raise the revenue by some other means? If we want to fund higher education, why not just have a statewide levy to raise money for grants?
You frame this issue as if people who oppose the amendment don't want to help pay for education. It's not the ends that are questionable, it's the means.
Kate, I'm in the process of gathering all of the information that needs to be submitted.
:-)
Kate & Lisa,
You two mean business!! Let me know if you need any assistance in the LRW department.
Legal research & writing.
Your are Excellent. And so is your site! Keep up the good work. Bookmarked.
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